00:00 Speaker 1: The advice and informational content does not necessarily represent the views of Mother's Market & Kitchen. Mother's recommends consulting your health professional for your personal medical condition.

00:11 Kimberly King: Hello. I'm Kimberly King, and welcome to the Mother's Market Podcast, a show dedicated to the truth, beauty, and goodness of the human condition. On today's show, by now, you've heard of all of the meat alternatives on the market. Are they really better than eating the real thing? Find out what options are available to you, and even learn how to make one yourself. And later we'll tell you what's going on around town.

00:35 KK: But first up, Megan Wroe is a registered dietitian with a background in nutrition education. Megan has worked with a variety of populations in school, outpatient, wellness settings. And she also acts as an adjunct professor for Cal Poly Pomona, teaching undergraduate nutrition courses. Megan has a passion for teaching her clients how to create meals that they love within the parameters of their dietary needs, in order to help them reach their optimum wellness. She's currently... She works at St. Jude Wellness Center, where she runs integrative wellness services and programs like weight loss, fitness, and mindfulness programs. And we welcome you, Megan, to the Mother's Market Podcast. How are you?

01:16 Megan Wroe: Good, thank you.

01:18 KK: It's great to have you here. And why don't you fill our audience in a little bit about your mission, before we get to today's show topic.

01:26 MW: Sure, yeah. My profession is a registered dietician, so I've always had a big, big passion for helping people to eat healthfully, but more specifically, to eat healthfully with real food. I think that can be a big misconception, which is why we have our topic today of what is healthy out in the world, and really trying to help people to cook and get real food into their diets for healthfulness. And then in that journey, I stumbled upon the wellness center, where now I help to manage the whole center, and we put all sorts of services together. 'Cause it's not just about food, which is where my real specialty is, but it's about what type of fitness you're doing. And is your fitness correct for your body? And are you looking at mindfulness correctly for you? Some people do really well with meditation, and some people really don't. So, looking at all the different components is what we do at the wellness center, and I really, really... I'm enjoying that now and helping to put the puzzle pieces together for all of our clients.

02:20 KK: That's great. And I have to say, behind the scenes, Megan just had an adorable baby girl three months ago. And you look fantastic, by the way.

02:26 MW: Thank you. Whole another part of wellness, just learning to be a mom.

02:30 KK: I know, exactly. Right? Now, you're learning that the meditation comes really into play, doesn't it?

02:35 MW: Oh, yeah.

02:36 KK: Today we are talking about the pros and cons of plant-based meat alternatives. I love this, and I think I remember interviewing you last time that I was like, "Can you come into my kitchen and teach me all these things?"

02:49 MW: Gladly.

[laughter]

02:51 KK: What exactly are meat substitutes? It's really a trend right now, isn't it? And why are the current...

02:55 MW: It sure is.

02:56 KK: What's the current hype over them?

02:58 MW: Yeah. I think the original topic was on Beyond Meat in general as a brand, and I just decided we should probably talk about all the brands 'cause it's not just Beyond Meat that's out there. So, meat alternatives are what they sound like, they're an alternative to meat, and they're basically products that are made to taste and look as similar as they can to the original meat products. So, there's burgers out there, there's sausages, there's chorizo and bacon crumbles, but they're all made from some sort of plant derivative rather than meat. That's basically what they all are, but they're all made from different things. The hype is that we're really in a world of plant-based eating now. That's become very, very trendy and popular for a lot of good reasons, and sometimes for reasons that people don't even know why. Plant-based eating is excellent 'cause we get a lot of fiber in it, and we get all the good nutrients that we need. But there's also a lot of downside, where with that comes a lot of processed food. And that's where this is a tricky world of the meat alternatives, but people... And I think, in general, the hype is it's plant-based, and therefore, it's popular.

04:02 KK: And you were saying, there's all kinds of different ones within the burgers, but it's also how you dress them up to make them taste differently, just like meat.

04:08 MW: Absolutely. Oh, yeah.

04:11 KK: And so what are they actually made of, if we wanna dive into the specific ingredients?

04:16 MW: Sure, and we can look at different brands, too, 'cause they vary, they really do. It's not to villainize or hype up any one of them, but in general, your basics are some sort of protein source instead of the meat. It used to be, before plant-based became popular, that soy was king. Everything was soy, soy everything. But soy became very over-cropped, and then people started worrying about the estrogenic effects of soy, and then it became very highly sprayed because it was in such high demand, with a lot of different types of pesticides and herbicides, and that people didn't like. So, a lot of products moved away from soy into looking for any other type of protein source, and pea became the popular one. Most of your meat alternatives are gonna... Either soy or pea as the main protein source. Then you're gonna look at corn as probably being in there somewhere. Wheat is another one that's in there, that are listed as the main sources of protein.

05:15 MW: And there's always gonna be something that has to bind that together, 'cause if you just have a bunch of peas stuck together, they don't really become a burger. Usually, there's some sort of starch, usually from potatoes, again maybe from corn, other source of vegetable starches. And then you have an oil to also bind it together, and make it taste juicy like a burger. The downside is most of them are refined oils, meaning that they're very highly processed with a lot of heat. And whether or not that's a healthy thing is up for debate, and what kind of oil is being used. Canola is a really popular one. Vegetable oils. Coconut oil is becoming popular in a lot of the burgers as well. Those are the main staples of ingredients that you're looking at. We can talk about the downsides and upsides of all of those. And then there's also colorings that are sometimes added, salts and flavorings that are sometimes added. And those can, again, be a healthful or a non-healthful choice.

06:06 KK: Yeah, let's talk a little bit about the pros and cons. It is interesting, you're right about the coconut oils, they are... That's really trending right now as well, and probably for the better. But what's... Yeah, can we talk a little bit about the upsides and then downsides?

06:21 MW: Sure. We can start with the oils in that... Again, like I said, they're very highly processed when they're in these. Most of your products will say, refined oil, refined canola, refined coconut. And what that means is that there was a lot of heat going on with the oil when it was being processed. So, you're actually sometimes, depending on the oil and how well it handles that heat, breaking it down to a point of rancidity before it even gets used. Depending on the oil, it may not be a healthy oil when it is very refined. At the very least, even if it doesn't get broken down to rancidity, you lose a lot of the nutrients in that heating process, so you end up with just the fat.

06:56 MW: And again, depending on the type of fat, is how much saturated fat versus unsaturated fat do you have in that product. I think it's interesting with the coconut oil becoming much more popular is that coconut oil is much higher in saturated fat. And so you get places like the American Heart Association that's recommending a plant-based, low-fat diet for its patients, so people are grabbing on to these burgers, and they're very high in coconut oil. The Impossible Burger and the Beyond Meat actually have more saturated fat than a turkey burger. And what does that do for that patient? Again, it's not necessarily that it's bad or good, but it makes things a little bit gray.

07:33 KK: Yeah, that's right.

07:34 MW: Those are the oils. As far as the different types of proteins, like I was talking to you about, the soy definitely has an issue with it being... If it's not organic, it's a problem because they're very highly sprayed with glyphosate. And peas, because they're becoming so popular, are starting to become the new soy. They're becoming very over-cropped, they're becoming very highly sprayed. Not all of them, not all farms, but it's kinda trending in that direction. And it's not like these companies are taking whole peas and just blending them up into a burger. They're stripping it and making it into like a pea-protein powder essentially. You get the protein still intact, but you're losing most of the other nutrients of the pea itself. Again, how healthy is that or not? Starches, if you're someone who's looking at a low-carb diet, this may or may not be a good burger choice for you. And then the MSG is probably one of the bigger additives that's an issue that I see, and people don't know what that... What to look for. When you see yeast extract, that means MSG. And so a lot of people don't realize that that's what that is.

08:42 KK: Yeast extract is really MSG?

08:43 MW: Mm-hmm.

08:45 KK: Interesting. Thank you. I did not know that.

08:46 MW: And some people can be very sensitive. MSG isn't quite the horrific thing everyone thinks it is, but some people are very sensitive to it, so it's just something to be aware of on a label.

08:55 KK: And to keep an eye out. What about a chicken substitution? I don't know if there... What does that look like?

09:04 MW: Like a piece of... Like a chicken patty that's supposed to taste like chicken, you mean?

09:09 KK: Yeah. My family barbecues chicken all the time, but what if... So, is there a substitution for barbecue chicken?

09:15 MW: There can be. There are certain brands... I know Gardein has something called Chick'n, and it's supposed to be chicken strips-tasting. Again, made of a lot of these same ingredients. It's either pea or soy, maybe corn. Some of the brands, like MorningStar or Boca Burgers, they actually are more vegetable-based. They might taste kind of like chicken, but they're not actually... There's not a lot of protein in them at all. They're more of just like a vegetable patty or something. A lot of those things that taste like chicken are... You can find them, but it's kind of the same thing as finding a burger one.

09:51 KK: And just being careful of those ingredients.

09:52 MW: Right.

09:54 KK: We just kind of covered this. If they're all, the meat substitutions, they're made of the same things, or... I don't know, do you feel like some are better than others?

10:03 MW: I do, yeah. And again, it's looking at the labels quite a bit. I brought some of my favorites with me that... A couple other brands, if you look at them... This one that I'm holding now is Abbot's Butcher. And if I read the ingredients, it's water, textured vegetable protein, which is like your mixed protein powder from different legumes and peas, but it's giving you a good amount of protein in it. And then it's got tomato paste, olive oil, red wine vinegar, sea salt, paprika, chili powder, onion, and other seasonings. Not too bad. It's not a whole food necessarily, because we did turn that pea and the rest of those proteins into a powder first. But compared to a lot of the other ones, not too shabby. And then this one is the No Evil brand, and it's water, gluten, red kidney beans, chickpea flour, soy, nutritional yeast, and a lot of seasonings.

10:52 MW: So, if I were to make a bean burger myself, it might be fairly similar to that one, which I think is not a bad option. And we do eat a lot of meat in this country, so I don't think it's a bad idea to reduce meat and look for a yummy alternative, but it's about what's in there. When we're talking about Beyond Meat and Impossible Burger, when we're... Some of those have some ingredients, depending on which product it is, that has a lot of additives in it, plus very high in salt, about four times as much salt as a regular burger. And then there's some other brands that I wouldn't even touch. I don't know that I'll name them all, but... And some of their ingredients are too... I don't even recognize what they are sometimes. So, it varies.

11:34 KK: But the ones that you brought, in particular, Abbot's Butcher and then No Evil. Is that the other one?

11:39 MW: Yeah.

11:40 KK: Oh, that doesn't even look... That was not a burger, or is that... What's that?

11:44 MW: This one was a sausage, and Abbot's Butcher was chorizo. They sell other things, too, these were just the two I had.

11:48 KK: Sure. And so taste-wise, they kind of... They taste...

11:52 MW: They're yummy. And I will say, most of the ones I've tasted, even the ones that I don't like the ingredients, they usually taste pretty good. Beyond Meat and Impossible are probably the most meat-like tasting of all the ingredients. Ethically, you start to think, "Well, if we want the taste of meat, should we just eat meat?" It's just a total weird debate to get into. But they do taste good. I love these two. The chorizo by Abbot's Butcher, I think, tastes better than regular chorizo 'cause it doesn't have that greasy flavor. So, we'll have that in a stuffed bell pepper with a lot of different vegetables stir fried into it. And that, to me, is a pretty darn whole foods diet. But the next day I might have a piece of real chicken also.

12:34 KK: Okay. Okay. So, balancing, depending on where you're at on the spectrum there. With what you do and where you're speaking, I'm sure with the plant-based trend happening, do you offer recipes or cooking classes for all of this?

12:52 MW: Absolutely, yeah. At the wellness center, we do cooking classes once a month, and we're starting to get into some YouTube channel type of things, but I very much believe in hands-on cooking to learn. And from a perspective of just food safety, we do mostly plant-based in the kitchen because it's hard to have food safety with meat. But I also think that people don't know how to cook with plants as much. So, with all these meat alternatives, I would so much rather you make a bean burger than buy a Beyond Meat burger, because you are taking a black bean and you're just mushing it up with egg, or maybe if you're trying to go vegan, with some sort of other binder like an oil. But you're using all these whole foods in your house rather than some protein powder that got mixed up with all these other ingredients.

13:38 KK: Right. It's more authentic in that... I mean, it's really... I think that's great. And you're right about hands-on. Even cooking meat, I don't know, I'm not there... I was a baker.

[laughter]

13:49 MW: Which is also fun.

13:51 KK: I'm not a chef in the kitchen.

13:51 MW: Also plant-based a lot of times, having cookies, right? Those are technically vegan a lot of times, if you don't have the butter.

13:57 KK: Right, right. And so actually, talk a little bit about butters, too. You talk about oils, but aren't there better butters as well for plant-based?

14:06 MW: For plant-based? Absolutely. Again, depending on brand, I tend to like oils better than the vegan "butter substitutes" simply because a lot of the butter substitutes have other kind of refined oils in them, so I'd rather have just... Use an oil as an alternative instead of the... It's not butter "butters."

[chuckle]

14:30 KK: Okay, perfect. The ingredients aside, what about the nutritional breakdown compared to meat?

14:36 MW: Your macros are actually somewhat similar. So, when we're saying macros, I mean, proteins, fats, and carbs. If you look across the board at the Beyond Meat and Impossible Burger, some sort of other... The Abbot's Butcher versus an actual beef burger or a turkey burger, your proteins are not too far off. A meat burger is always gonna have a little bit more, so we're talking maybe 30-ish grams versus 20-25 in a Beyond Meat. But still pretty good source of protein even for the plant-based alternatives. As far as carbs go, they're usually pretty low. The plant-based alternatives are gonna be a little higher because they're using legumes. So, someone who is watching their carbs a lot, or a keto diet, for instance, is gonna wanna be careful with those. And then fats are also pretty similar, which I think is the most surprising part, again, with people who are thinking plant-based equals heart-healthy, but are looking at fat content. Your fat content is not really any different between a Beyond Meat versus a regular burger. And something like a turkey burger or a chicken patty sometimes even has less saturated fat than some of these that are using lots and lots of these oils in them. So, it may not fat-wise be as good of a choice.

15:47 KK: Yeah, so that hidden ingredient is not hidden, it's just that that's where the fats are, and you do have to really streamline what you can and cannot have.

15:56 MW: The interesting thing, too, I think, is in the micronutrients. Those are your vitamins and minerals. Because while, across the board, your macros aren't too different between an animal versus a non-animal, you actually get much more micronutrients in the original meat burger than you do in these meat alternates. Again, we're talking processed ones, not if you're home-making it. If you're home-making a black bean burger, that's a whole different story. But a processed one, because of all the heating and the processing involved, usually you're losing out on things like omega-3s, vitamin D, vitamin A. The iron is very different, there's heme iron in animal products, and non-heme in animal, so we don't absorb it... Oh, I'm sorry, in plant-based, so we don't absorb the plant-based non-heme as well as the heme from animals. That's where people who are vegetarian or vegan sometimes run into anemia issues, also run into things like fatigue or adrenal fatigue because of their lack of omega-3s. So, some of those nutrients that are really wrapped up into the animal meat, you lose out on, and when there's processing involved, you lose a lot, too. That is actually one of the most significant differences nutritionally speaking.

17:06 KK: We talked a little bit about the fat and calories, which can be hidden in the oils. What about if there are such wide discrepancies amongst these products, and why are there so many restaurants and consumers that are turning to them?

17:19 MW: I think there's two main reasons. One is just marketing, in general. Bill Gates runs... Helps with Beyond Meat, right? So, if there's a lot of marketing behind something, people are just gonna jump on the bandwagon. I think there's a lack of education, and people are just thinking... They know that we want plant-based. And they're right in that aspect, we do need more plants, we do need to eat less meat. I think the latest statistic was that Americans eat on average three burgers a day, as far as meat is concerned.

17:47 KK: Oh, my God. That's average?

17:48 MW: As far as what a real portion is versus what they're supposed to eat. So, just meat-wise, it would equate to three burgers a day. That's way too much. And no one... I think it was 12% of Americans actually eat the recommended amount of fruits and vegetables a day. So, that does need to shift, but that doesn't necessarily mean you have to go vegan. I think, because of that, we're starting to recognize as a nation that, "Yes, we need to go more plant-based. Yes, we need to get healthier, therefore a plant-based burger is healthy. I'm gonna drive through Carl's and I'm gonna get my plant-based burger." Well, like you said at the beginning, what's on that burger? Yeah, we have that plant-based patty, but there's still mayo, which also isn't plant-based, which is kind of funny. [laughter] And then if there's cheese or a bun, and already having it with French fries. I think we're villainizing the meat and not looking at the whole big picture. I think that's one reason why there's so much gravitation toward it at restaurants, where it's just automatically, "Oh, yeah, I went to Carl's, but I had the plant-based one."

18:52 MW: But the other is sustainability. Clientele are really looking at Earth health, and global warming, and gas emissions, and there's been a lot of villainizing of animals for food for that reason. And again, I think there's some debate there on what is healthier because, yes, while a cow emission may give more gas emissions than harvesting a pea, what about all of the processing that goes into making that pea into a burger versus the cow meat that's automatically a burger, and then the plastic packaging and all the over-mono-cropping of the peas? I have yet to see a really good environmental study that isn't just comparing that initial gas emission and is not looking at the whole big picture from plant or animal to mouth.

19:40 KK: And off the top of your head, is there a culture where they're getting it all right with the balance of meat, carbs, but plants and vegetables as well?

19:52 MW: I think so. You've probably heard of the Blue Zones. There's Okinawa, Japan, and there's a city in Italy, I think it's Sardinia in Italy, Loma Linda here in California, and there's one in Nicaragua, and I'm missing one. There's five different Blues Zones. They're supposed to be the healthiest cultures and societies that we have. There's been a lot of research done. If you just Google Blue Zones, you'll see all this cool information about these societies that are living very, very long lives with very, very little diseases. They're living into their hundreds, some of these people, and they're not getting their being sick. 'Cause a lot of people in the United States are living to be very old, but they're living to be very old and getting sick. They aren't in the Blue Zones. And what they're seeing is, with the exception of Loma Linda, which actually does follow a pretty vegan diet, all of the other societies are plant-based, meaning based on plants, but they don't eliminate animal meat. In Okinawa, Japan, there is beef, there is fish, there's pork, but there is much more plants than anything else. And then there's the whole rest of the lifestyle wrapped up into it, too. That would be exercise, and society, and stress.

21:00 KK: But as you said, it's the balance of the...

21:02 MW: Right.

21:02 KK: Yeah. This is interesting information, and I appreciate it. And we'll be right back. We need to take a quick break. More in just a moment, don't go away.

21:09 KK: Why not shop online and let mothers have your order ready for you when you get to the store? Go online to www.mothersmarket.com and place your order today.

21:19 KK: And now back to our interview with the registered dietitian, Megan Wroe. And we're talking about the pros and cons of plant-based meat alternatives, and it's been very interesting, Megan, thank you. But in the context of fast food, where none of the food is incredibly high quality, did I say that out loud? [chuckle] But isn't it healthier to have a plant-based alternative than meat? We kind of talked a little bit about this.

21:43 MW: I would say maybe. It depends on who you are and what your nutrition needs are. When you really look at the whole package of what you're getting in that meal, and again, we'll look at just a cheeseburger that you're getting at Carl's, or In-N-Out, or Burger King. The whole package itself, while that meat, while that plant-based patty may be slightly healthier than a regular burger patty, what else is on that burger? What are you having with it? What soda are you having with it? Because while we talk about how Americans, I just said earlier, are eating so much meat per day, our amount of... Our consumption of sodas and sugary drinks and processed foods has also skyrocketed. So, is it the chicken or the egg? Not to play on words here, but is it that much healthier in the grand scheme of things? Is it gonna change that much of anything in your health? Likely not.

22:38 MW: And then you also have to think about how was that meat burger, or whatever the meat product is, produced. There's a big, big difference in factory-farmed meat, versus grass-fed, pasture-raised animal meat. And if you're talking about one of those... If I'm at home and we're not at a fast food restaurant, or if I'm wonderfully at a fast food and they do have a grass-fed, I haven't found one yet, but those are much higher in omega-3s, they're high in vitamin D, vitamin A, got a ton of zinc. I would argue that that type of beef patty, or turkey patty or pork, is actually healthier than a lot of these plant-based alternatives, if you're having the right portion size and not smothering it in a sauce and that type of thing. But apples to apples, meat to non-meat, it probably is healthier, a grass-fed than a conventional factory-raised. But the factory-raised are the ones you're getting in fast food, which is why I would say probably, if you're just looking at the patty, the plant-based is probably a little healthier 'cause factory-raised meat is pretty nasty.

23:37 KK: Right. When you start to break it down and know what was that process, and all of... And you've said it before, anything that's been refined, as far as the oils, then out go all of the nutrients in there. And so I can't even... I don't wanna think about factory meat.

23:52 MW: I know.

[laughter]

23:52 KK: What about, would you as a dietician, recommend these products as part of a healthy diet or plant-based burgers?

24:00 MW: Yeah, maybe. Again, depending who you are, but I think healthy depends on the patient, depends on the person. If you're trying to go much more plant-based... Let's say you're someone who just... You're that statistic, you eat almost no vegetables, and you eat tons and tons of meat all the time, and you really want to move in a plant-based direction, but you're struggling because your taste buds have not adjusted yet, and your lifestyle has not adjusted yet, and your family hasn't adjusted yet. Then these products might be your stepping stone. You may be able to start transitioning by starting to have a Beyond Meat patty instead of a Carl's Junior-smothered patty. You might be able to be okay with the sausage from No Evil instead of a kielbasa sausage. But you should look at them as that, as a training wheel, as a stepping stone, and not in there. You should be looking into, "How do I make my own black bean burger? How do I make my own chickpea sausage crumbles" to get a whole food diet and not just stop at the fast food version of plant-based. Because just 'cause it's plant-based and healthier, doesn't mean it's healthy. And I read an article somewhere that Advil is technically plant-based because it's all from plant-derived stuff, but no one looks at Advil as a natural remedy for anything.

25:17 KK: Interesting. I didn't know that.

25:19 MW: Yeah. I kinda like that as an analogy to some of these foods, is that, "Yeah, I can recommend it." It will help in a lot of ways, if you're that person, but you should be looking toward a larger end goal. And if you're not that person, if you're someone who eats burgers sometimes, eats fish sometimes, eats beans sometimes, I don't know that you really need to worry too much about it. And why bother bringing in some of these sometimes artificial icky ingredients that are in, depending on the brand you're buying?

25:46 KK: Right. But I also like what... Something you said earlier is that use those as the training wheels to learn how to do it on your own, which I think bodes for cooking anyway, and just knowing what you're putting in and what you're eating.

25:58 MW: Yeah. And if you're someone who ethically, for whatever the reason is, you are following a vegan diet that is your lifestyle, and you go to a barbecue and they're doing a bunch of sausages...

26:06 KK: Bring it... Bring your own.

26:08 MW: Bring that, absolutely. But should that be your everyday meal? No.

26:11 KK: What about fish? Is there a substitute for fish, if you're a true vegan or true plant-based?

26:17 MW: That's such a good question. I don't think I've ever seen a vegan fish alternative, I don't think ever. I can't imagine it would taste good.

[laughter]

26:27 KK: What would that look like?

26:29 MW: But now I'm gonna be on the lookout. No, I can't think of any.

26:32 KK: Call me if you find that.

26:33 MW: Yeah, I will.

26:33 KK: 'Cause I'm just interested.

26:35 MW: I do know that some people do like a mashed up tofu.

26:38 KK: Yes, like on sushi instead of the...

26:41 MW: Right. They can do that, as well as instead of a tuna salad they'll do a mashed up chickpea or a mashed up tofu salad. I've seen that before, but as far as a fish fillet...

26:48 KK: Yeah. [chuckle] To be continued.

26:52 MW: Yeah, do some digging.

26:53 KK: If you know of anything, let us know. What about... Can you explain what you mean by a whole food diet versus a plant-based?

27:00 MW: Yeah, 'cause I mentioned that as a whole food 'cause... Right. Plant-based means any of these products works, and means things like chicken fingers that are not of chicken, and deep fried. Sweet potato fries are plant-based, and so are French fries. Whole foods means the original food in its natural form, or at least in its form that you can recognize where it came from is where I tell people. 'Cause you might mash up that bean into a patty, and then you can't see it as a bean. But can you recognize that ingredient and picture in your head where it came from? It's not adulterated. Was there anything added or subtracted in the process of getting that food? Was it just a can of beans? In which case, yeah, there is a little bit maybe of salt added. But they didn't do anything to extract nutrition from that bean, that's a whole food. That's what we really wanna be getting toward, is not necessarily a raw diet or where you're just eating vegetables, but are you eating foods in very close to their natural state, that's where you get healthy and not in these alternative versions of anything.

28:00 KK: That's interesting. Okay, thank you for explaining that. What about meals and the meal ideas that can be modified to be plant-based but still whole foods? We're adding a little piece here to the puzzle.

28:11 MW: Yeah. So some of my... Two of my favorite examples, one is a stir fry, 'cause most people can whip together some version of a stir fry. If you're used to a stir fry that has shrimp in it or big pieces of fillet in it, or some sort of meat or pork, you can make that same base of a stir fry and just change the protein. If you are maybe doing your training wheels, and you're doing a stepping stone, you could use something like this Spanish chorizo in it or chop up... Or use some of the ground meat alternatives from some of these different brands. Like I know Beyond Meat has Beyond burger crumbles, that would be really good in a stir fry.

28:47 MW: You could take it a step further and go whole food, and throw some edamame and tempeh in there. And my favorite thing to do with tempeh is actually toss it with some tamari and avocado oil and roast it, 'cause then it gets really crispy, and it's like a crouton. And then you throw that in your stir fry, and it's heaven. That would be a whole food way to be a plant-based stir fry. Something that's maybe a little bit more meat-based, like a burger, let's say, if you're making that at home, again, you can do your training wheels stepping stone and just swap out the burger for any number of these different products, burger replacement alternatives, or make your own patty. Get chickpeas or kidney beans, any legume really. Black beans are delicious. Mash them up or put them in your food processor with, if you're a vegetarian, an egg. If you're a vegan, you're gonna wanna look for some other binder, which is usually you could do a chia gel or a flaxseed gel will bind it really well, and seasonings. And you just make patties out of them. And go ahead and either grill them, depending on how sturdy they are, or I like to bake mine 'cause mine otherwise fall apart a little bit.

29:50 KK: Oh, really? You can bake it, too.

29:52 MW: Yeah, absolutely. And then my favorite thing to do is do a grilled or roasted portobello mushroom on top, too, 'cause it creates more of that meatiness. And then you look at seasonings, it's all about how do you create that sort of savory umami burger taste when it isn't a burger.

30:08 KK: Not exactly a burger, yeah.

30:08 MW: And I find tamari works really well for that. It gives that umami flavor. Fish sauce, oddly enough, can do that as well. And sometimes acids, like a balsamic vinegar, can do that too.

30:18 KK: Oh, wow. I really do need to get with you with these cooking classes. [laughter] Now that I mentioned that, tell me more about those cooking classes. And what else... I love because you have the education behind it, so you're teaching the dish, but also things about that.

30:34 MW: Yeah. Our classes are an hour long, and we offer them once a month. And they're always on a different topic. We might have a breakfast subject, or it might be quick and easy dinners, or it might be really honed in on a diagnosis. Maybe we have thyroid-friendly eating, something like that. It really varies across the board every month of what our topic is. But then we do anywhere from three to five recipes, depending on how complicated they are, and basically it's a demo type of class. You come and watch me, or our other dietitian, cook. And as we're cooking, we're telling you all the whys behind it. "This is why I'm using this ingredient. This is what to look for on the labels. This is why I'm using this brand and not this brand." Or, "This is how you're doing it plant-based, but you could also swap shrimp in here."

31:19 MW: We're doing a lot of talking as we go so that you can see reasonings, nutritionally speaking, why we made choices, but taste-wise, why we made choices, too. I'm also telling people, "This is why we're adding," like I said, "the tamari sauce." Even though it's not an Asian dish, it's adding that umami flavor. So, we're kind of giving all those examples. And then we cook it all up, and everybody gets to have a sample, which is the best part, 'cause we get to eat. And usually the whole building smells really good, too, if we're getting things cooking, so we get other people popping in and, "What's going on in here?"

31:49 KK: I can imagine. And do you have cookbooks that you've put together or recipes of anything?

31:53 MW: We're working on it. We don't have a cookbook yet. Everybody gets the recipes that day that we work with, so you walk away with the recipes. And it's always actually really fun to see clients come back and say, "Oh, I made it, but I did this to it. I used kidney beans instead." We're working on actually making a St. Jude Wellness Center cookbook, we don't have one yet. And like I said, we're trying to start recording to also get just little snippets online as well, 'cause it can be hard to be there in person, give up an hour of your day to be there, but it's always more fun to taste it, I think.

32:22 KK: Exactly. Well, I'm so happy for you that things are going well and that you continue following your passion, doing what you love doing.

32:29 MW: Thank you.

32:30 KK: Thank you so much for your time, it's been great advice. And we appreciate your knowledge, and look forward to having you on again. But in the meantime, you can get more information on Megan, the website is stjudewellnesscenter.org, and we look forward to your next visit.

32:43 MW: Thanks so much for having me.

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32:46 KK: If you want to learn more health information, check out Mother's in-store guest speakers at www.mothersmarket.com. All seminars start at 6:30. And please be sure to go online to our events page and reserve your spot. Thanks for listening to the Mother's Market podcast and for shopping at Mother's Market.

33:03 S1: The advice and informational content does not necessarily represent the views of Mother's Market & Kitchen. Mother's recommends consulting your health professional for your personal medical condition.

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